I’m worried about Samuel, it will hit and hit hard once the shock wears off.
At least the “psych nannies” are aware and are making plans for it. Even
after 45 years I still think about that girl and the things about her I liked,
but the memories, over time, sustain you rather than torture.
It’s rare than anyone brings up the fact that any tactic you come up with,
someone can and will copy it. Never depend on just one secret weapon
either, for the very same reason. Like FTL, while it would be a huge
advantage, up until someone figures out a way to defend or counter it.
Whether it’s a warp field, hyper space jump, or a form of wormhole,
anything made can be detected and planned against. Warp fields are
gravity based (in Trek) and most forms of FTL in Sci-FI are in some way
gravity manipulation…
Makes ya think hummm?
That’s one reason to have Samuel hit the ground running, so exhausted
at the end of every day that he falls asleep while falling to his cot.
And why he will never be alone.
And why he will be responsible for other larval Marines.
“Victory is not achieved by assuming that your
enemy will do what you expect him to do.”
Yeah, I did the same, threw myself into my training and work.
But I became a “robit”, it wasn’t until I started counseling that
my personality came back. Just an unfeeling machine…
For the earlier conversation on saving a copy of a human brain and loading it
into an Android body:
How much would that much memory cost?
How much would the download/upload process cost?
What’s the price of an Android body?
How many people would demand possible immortality?
What is the population of the Empire, again?
Who gets the download?
Who decides?
Who pays?
What effect would this single program have on the Imperial economy?
What effect would it have on the Empire in the long run?
Should the possibility even be explored?
Make this conversation… interesting. I am unleashing the conversation
from the usual limits on politics and religion except for the
cardinal rule: Treat each other with respect.
Otherwise, fire at will.
I’ll be sitting over there>>>>>.
Androids as a whole package seemed to be “cheep enough” to (ab)use them as
whores – so my guess’d be purchasing a body + empty memory bank should be
“affordable enough” for at least some individual persons. In your setting,
if someone is able and willing to pay for the backup,
they’re probably just allowed to do so by default, right?
—-
We never actually talked about uploading human brains to an android, did we?
I thought we were speculating mostly about making android copies of androids
and “whatever copy of humans” …
Putting a prize tag on a human -> android upload is difficult without
knowing how exactly the AI are created and how compatible they are to us.
—-
As for immortality as a goal: defeating death is a dream as old as
humanity itself. Hence the need to develop ideas of an afterlife and
trying to preserve the bodies of loved ones …
But suddenly being able to achieve this goal, is something else internally.
In most SF stories I came across it usually turns out as a bad idea,
eventually. Like, if have some people who are immortal while others are ”
allowed” to die, you automatically run into a scenario where you have a
caste of detached immortal self-proclaimed demi-gods and a disposable mass
of ordinary people. (Frank Herbert has a novel “The Eyes of Heisenberg”
about this topic, I would recommend for reading 😉 )
Another aspect of being immortal while others aren’t, as summarized by The
Doctor: “Immortality isn’t living forever. That’s not what it feels like.
Immortality is everybody else dying.”
—
As for long term effects … depends on the time scale we’re talking about.
In a space-limited scenario this probably will lead to stagnation eventually.
cheap.. NO,, they were ‘selling’ em to make money.!
and,, irl the closest robot (to android looking), minus
brain and (long term) powerplant,,
is about half a million
Half a million would be too much for you and me maybe.
But for there’s even cars that cost more than that, cars
that do find their buyers.
And don’t forget that even almost-normal people do spent
hundreds of thousands for buying houses …
(Above all: someone WAS whoring out AI a while back. They could
just as well have used them as “backups”)
How much do you think a 89 year old billionaire would be willing to
pay for the promise to get a new, healthy body and thus at least a few
more decades?
Here’s the thing about the cost, if someone made the switch, they stood to
“live” hundreds of years, and something that major would have to be on a
very long-term loan. Repairs and upgrades would of course be billed
separately…
If you’re playing that long a game, you should probably start early and set aside
small amounts of money conservatively with a moderate but sure interest rate.
True, it would be no different than paying into a retirement fund.
Or use an existing one to pay for the transfer.
Another question is would someone deserving of one but was
senile or suffering from age-related dementia be able to transfer?
Would it cure the problems?
immortally: then you have the “Legality” issue.
the ‘rich’ taking it with em.. forever
or the tyrant staying in power..
.. the endless disposable army ..
There are huge downsides to anything that far reaching,
which is why I feel it shouldn’t just be up to the person
wanting it, they should deserve it and they should be able
to benefit others with this gift. Would I be eligible? No,
there is a hundred people in every town just like me.
The cost of such an upload depends on the process is common and “finished”.
The starting price is never stable and many facts add to it, not just the actual
cost of the procedure. Like Viagra, that last time I seen it’s cost was $63 per pill,
while when it first came out it was $11(USD). Only because it worked and many
that didn’t need it wanted it. Same goes for any diet plan, the more popular it
is, the more it costs. I’m diabetic, and anything designed for people like me is
costly only because it’s considered “healthy” that many started to eat it as a
trend only.
On the other side of the trend is things like TV’s or video game systems, they go
down in price, more so when the next thing comes and and becomes “trendy”.
When flat screen TVs hit the market they were very costly to have and became
a status symbol. At first, a 32″ TV was $1000 to $1200 but now I use one as a
monitor that cost me $125.
Human-android transfers should NEVER be about who can afford it, rather who
The Empire stood to lose if the person died. And it should be up to said person
wanted that option, not forced on them. Until said person passed away and their
mind is transferred, I’ll guess the android bodies would not be a true replacement,
rather than an option to pass on that person’s knowledge to students since they
would basically be disabled. Until a android body could reach at least human motion.
As far as who would want it, it depends on the person, sure I wouldn’t mind living
200 to 500 years healthy and clear minded, but unless I could find things to do with
that time I enjoyed it would become torture, and that would make the effort, cost, and
time worthless. Deep space explorers, doctors, and MAYBE some leaders would do it,
but for your average Joe with no interest in such things, it would be cruel. A psych eval
would be a must for that reason, for many it could drive them mad or bring out the
worst in people.
As far as who decides? I suggest a panel of impartial people from many areas of medical,
social, legal, and such to determine if this person is deserving, able, and willing to undertake
the task of it. It can’t be a quick and sudden decision, there are so many factors that have to
be covered, plus the person wanting to do it has to be prepared for it.
Also the question of the effect of the transfer, could a copy be made and
updated until the time came?
Would it be fatal to the person being transferred?
How much time would the transferie need to learn how to do even basic tasks?
(After I broke my back it took 6 months to learn how to walk again, etc…)
The list goes on….
That is a very interesting set of questions and I’ll think on it more, the movies
and TV shows gloss over SO much on this topic…
## Pricing
Of course the exact prices will always be varying, like they are for cars, houses and
TV sets … question is: is a copy more like a TV set or a van Gogh painting, price-wise?
—-
## Who should be deciding?
It’s a bit funny. You guys are usually all about free market and let people decide
for themselves. Also stuff like “if you want something – what are you willing to
sacrifice for it? Don’t demand it from the government or community”
But the decision if somebody should be “allowed” to continue their lives for a few
centuries (or eons?), which is a rather personal matter, ain’t it?
That decision should be handed over to a panel?
What’s the difference?
If you can’t afford clean water: dig a well.
You want a healthy environment for your kids: then move there yourself.
And if you want to eat work, goddammit.
+ + but + +
You want to live for ever? Sorry dude. There’s a committee for
that. Please hand in your application, thank you.
And don’t call us. We call you.
—-
## The “would it be fatal” aspect:
Unless it requires dissecting or “quantum shredding” the original subject,
I think the transfer would probably be non-disruptive and repeatable.
I always cringe when somebody copies an information based being in a SF
setting and the original is destroyed in the process like that was the natural
way of things (for example removing an AI infecting your ships main computer by
COPYING it over to a less vital system – which was the go-to solution in some SF
shows a while back).
Making an exact copy of a mind into a new body should – at least in my humble
opinion – result in having two (initially very similar) versions of the same individual.
Of course they would start to differentiate after the process as soon both start
making their own experiences and memories.
(A bit like some pairs of identical twins, maybe?)
## Who would even want to?
Well.
There seems to be surprising number of people who cling onto their lives,
even after losing control over their bodies and minds as well as almost every
single loved one years, even decades ago…
Offering them a new body and a way to start over?
“Sure, Sir, where do I have to sign? Huh? It says you’d have to murder
5 million kids somewhere in China and extract their brain cells for raw
materials? Oh, well, can’t be helped, I guess. When will we start?”
The panel is to decide if the gift of extended life is for you, I for one wouldn’t
want a cruel, inhuman person that gift, or someone that will crack under the
mental strain of hundreds of years. There’s another comic I follow,
“The Quantum Vibe” Where science had cracked not only this very issue, but
the human genome to the point where humans live hundreds of years and
can “save” their minds into an android’s from a backup in case they die. Also
can by this science, can remake themselves into almost any form they like. A
snake, a cartoon character, you name it. Weird but who knows?
I suggested a panel make up of people who are trustworthy and have no connection
to the candidate to judge if this person can handle the strain of the transfer and
the number of years that will pass. An android brain can only store so much data
and even the human brain has limits, that is part of the reason as you age you
become forgetful, you’re reaching the limits that your mind can “save”.
This is a whole new world of possibilities that has no one to grasp the scope of or
the slightest idea of the long term effect on the human mind, caution must be
taken. Later on when people know the whys and whatfores of the effect of
what the transfers cause could it be more relaxed.
Plus I feel it should be as guarded a secret as the grav tech, you wouldn’t want
someone like the CSA president to have an android body would you?
“It’s a bit funny. You guys are usually all about free market and let people decide
for themselves. Also stuff like “if you want something – what are you willing to
sacrifice for it? Don’t demand it from the government or community””
The fact that there is no forced government charity doesn’t mean that there is NO
charity.
There are plenty of private charities dedicated to helping the less fortunate, or
helping people get over rough periods in their lives.
They just do it with assets that other people contribute freely, not with assets
seized by force through taxes.
But you are correct in one thing, don’t demand that others help you. Ask for it.
If you need a well, there will always be others who will help you dig it… But
you’d better be out there with tools in your hand… Or a tray full of lemonade,
or something.
Who do you think pays for the program mentioned in panel one here: http://thegentlewolf.net/comic/tgw-551/
Nobody need go hungry in the Empire, no child need be neglected or
uneducated. The people around them are better than that.
But no one will support you if you decide to lay around and do nothing of
value, either. TANSTAAFL.
As far as “Who decides”, well, as always, the people who pay for it do. Just
like with everything else. If you can afford eternal life and can persuade
someone else to sell it to you, well, go for it.
If you want someone else to pay for it, just ask. Nicely. Doesn’t mean you’ll
get it, though. Offer something of value in exchange.
Just like the AIs are expected to do. No, they didn’t ask to be “born”. But
just like anyone else, they are expected to eventually earn the benefits of
living in a civilization. No one is obligated to provide for them from electronic
cradle to end of life.
I guess I have a higher opinion of the average person than you do. But then,
I’ve lived all over the world, and have met good people wherever I’ve found
myself. Maybe because those are the people I’ve always looked for.
I don’t have such a bad view on people in general. Pick any number
of John, Jane, Mustapha or Sarah Doe at random from all over the
world, and you’re almost guaranteed to get a group of brilliant and
nice people (plus the occasional bad apple, of course).
I just don’t believe that you can get rich by being a “good person”,
or more precisely that money corrupts even more profoundly than
power does.
Also I consider all that “free market is the best and only solution
to each and every problem” or the “invisible hand of the market
will make things right for everyone” or “everybody gets what they
deserve” is mostly just self-serving bullshit, fed to us by those who
don’t have to care about anything but how do get even a bigger
share of the cake.
As for TANSTAAFL – agreed. But then we should finally start to
apply that to natural resources, too. The cost of one ounce of
gold, gas or iron is not just the work and energy needed to pull
it from the ground.
“Also I consider all that “free market is the best and only solution
to each and every problem” or the “invisible hand of the market
will make things right for everyone” or “everybody gets what they
deserve” is mostly just self-serving bullshit, fed to us by those who
don’t have to care about anything but how do get even a bigger
share of the cake.”
That’s not what I espouse here. People can choose duty and responsibility
towards others, and they will. But it’s not something that can be
enforced by government, nor should it be. When the government takes on
the power to pick winners and losers, everyone loses eventually. And
in the meantime, anger, hatred and bigotry flourish as some see others
gaining an unnatural advantage via authoritarian edict.
Name a system that has lifted more people out of poverty than the free
market. It’s not perfect, no. But with what would you replace it that
would do better?
The “lifting out of poverty” thing isn’t that much of an
achievement of unleashed capitalism as it is a result of
forcing the bosses to adhere to at least some standards.
Pure, unmitigated “free market” capitalism is coal miners
working themself to death without ever making enough
money to feed their families.
It’s children sifting through toxic waste in landfills.
It’s people dying in the streets of – say –
London because the air is just unbreathable.
A truly free market laissez faire liberalism without work
standards or environmental regulations is a monster.
It might be a bit too far out on a tangent, but: there’s always
other costs beyond just paying for your workforce,
raw materials and facilities.
Like, somebody has to deal with all the damage and the waste and
the risks of accidents. And without an external force, a free
market entrepreneur will always chose to let the community pay
these prizes.
## Back to “immortality as a service”
Frankly, if there’s any form of immortality for some
but not for the masses, it will be a huge incentive
(maybe even the ultimate incentive?) for corruption.
If you let the money decide, most of the chosen few
will be pampered princesses and Ebeneezer Scrooges.
If you let a panel/committee decide, those who can
afford it will try and find somebody to bribe and
buy their way in.
If there’s a lottery, they will try to rig it
(and you might end up giving immortality to people
who don’t really wanted it in the first place)
The trouble is that there will be many that would want immortality,
no matter the price tag. But the question is how many have the
psychology for it. In my opinion, someone that has a really long-
term goal has the best chances in that regard.
Take Perry Rhodan as an example, despite being a little over
3,000 years old, he still has his two main goals. He wants to
explore the universe and he wants to help humanity to find
it’s place among the stars. Though he has changed his point
of view from humanity to Terrans, which now includes non-
human, non-humanoid and even non-biological people.
Still, in this regard, I still find the introduction from the Perry
Rhodan point-and-click adventure very apt:
Do you know what immortality means?
Not being able to die for 3,000 years?
Having to see the seeds one sows grow, bloom and wilt
over and over again?
Two billion solar masses in the milky way. Enough space
for everybody one would think.
Everyone wants what others have.
Planets, resources, weapons, life and immortality.
A whole universe full of enemies.
Everyone might want it to start with, but few could handle it long-term.
an immortal could see empires rise and fall, civilizations live, prosper
and die off, picture what a stop-motion movie would look like that covered
a thousand, or a million years. People, weather, flora and fauna would be
just a blur, no substance. Only you would be stable during the whole thing,
nothing you’d see or hear would leave any impression… Sad, but that’s
the life of an immortal.
I can see some on Earth and Catia living there as androids, but whole-sale conversions?
How crowded would the planet become? I think it would be based on the value of their
contributions as much as anything. Like myself and my father, I’m a natural as a mechanic
and a “Jack-of-all-trades”, however I lack the outside of the box thinking like my father
has, he could plan and build something on the spot without the need of putting on paper.
He loved to create working things out a pile a scrap, while most people would be like WTH?!?
Also it should not be available to any of the young (unless they were terminally ill) simply
because of the sudden drop of population growth it would cause for the fad of it, like when
the rich kids on Lamia were doing with the Catain limbs, both would be irreversible.
Exactly, of course the option of egg, sperm collection would come to that, but
people that want something for the “fad” of it rarely think of anyone beyond
of themselves, clearly not a good candidate for the transfer. If someone thinks
“I’m bored” and do something for the “fun” of it, should never be given a body,
they couldn’t handle the torture of extended life. The movie
“a clockwork orange” is a very good example of that mindset.
I believe the economy of The Empire is a solid issue that should be looked at in detail.
Not because of the costs and the longevity of the androids, but because of how long
would they be able to function and do the jobs they have? Producing 10,000 ‘droids
would no doubt cost in the billions of dollars and millions for repairs or upgrades.
Add in human minds and emotions could cause an unknown issues that would create
expenses with no real advantages. The entire program could crash the economy or
give it a boost, it’s a real issue of the long-term costs to consider and far greater minds
than mine to figure out… I’ve thought about it a lot and I’m still seeing as many cons as
pros.
It appears to be like Deep Space 9’s wormhole, free and no tech to support it,
any kind of physical object set close enough to have an effect could be pulled
in and lost or torn apart.
Exactly. Wormholes can be detected by mass detectors, so
they’d have a gravity field as well. Also, they can be entered
and exited at an angle, so any block would have to be huge.
A bunch of (or rather thousands and thousands) of weapon
bearing defense platforms orbiting the wormhole might work.
If there’s enough of them on various different orbits you will
always have a few missiles ready for any hostile passing thru.
Of course they need a way of telling friend from foe.
But there’s systems for that even today.
And you need to take care of them or they will run out of ammo
or eventually collide with each other or drop into the thing
(or stop working in multiple other ways)
Dr. Who said it best, living forever just means everyone else dies around you.
That would be a loneliness I for one could not take. I don’t know who said it
first, but “no parent should outlive their children” pretty much says it all.
A special type of person could do it, someone that was fine with being alone.
Someone who’s fine with “the job” over anything else.
A transferred human would also need to option to retire, “an extended vacation”
so to speak, to decide what’s next and where.
Or you’d somehow try and take your loved ones with you on the ride?
But would that even work either?
Try to truly image spending not only a few decades but millennia
with always the same wife, while your children are either long dead
and gone or with you for eternity (and if they are, too – what
about their spouses and children? What about your friends?)
What if you find out – after a decades of loving each other deeply
and few thousand years of getting along somehow – that you’ve come
to a point where you just can’t stand the people around you anymore.
But by then you’re stuck with them anyway.
Everybody else is literally from a different era.
Immortality always comes with a form of stagnation,
doesn’t it? Either that, or you go on living on and
on in a world you understand less and less of.
Stanislav Lem has a nice novel named “Transfer” about an astronaut
who had traveled for about a century without aging (relativity of
course) and returned to a world that he no longer fit in,
no matter how hard he tried.
.01c = 6,706,166 mph
If Grant has seen the dragonfly, he hasn’t reacted or said anything yet.
He’s numb, almost unaware of the world right now, I’ve been there.
I’m worried about Samuel, it will hit and hit hard once the shock wears off.
At least the “psych nannies” are aware and are making plans for it. Even
after 45 years I still think about that girl and the things about her I liked,
but the memories, over time, sustain you rather than torture.
It’s rare than anyone brings up the fact that any tactic you come up with,
someone can and will copy it. Never depend on just one secret weapon
either, for the very same reason. Like FTL, while it would be a huge
advantage, up until someone figures out a way to defend or counter it.
Whether it’s a warp field, hyper space jump, or a form of wormhole,
anything made can be detected and planned against. Warp fields are
gravity based (in Trek) and most forms of FTL in Sci-FI are in some way
gravity manipulation…
Makes ya think hummm?
That’s one reason to have Samuel hit the ground running, so exhausted
at the end of every day that he falls asleep while falling to his cot.
And why he will never be alone.
And why he will be responsible for other larval Marines.
“Victory is not achieved by assuming that your
enemy will do what you expect him to do.”
Yeah, I did the same, threw myself into my training and work.
But I became a “robit”, it wasn’t until I started counseling that
my personality came back. Just an unfeeling machine…
For the earlier conversation on saving a copy of a human brain and loading it
into an Android body:
How much would that much memory cost?
How much would the download/upload process cost?
What’s the price of an Android body?
How many people would demand possible immortality?
What is the population of the Empire, again?
Who gets the download?
Who decides?
Who pays?
What effect would this single program have on the Imperial economy?
What effect would it have on the Empire in the long run?
Should the possibility even be explored?
Make this conversation… interesting. I am unleashing the conversation
from the usual limits on politics and religion except for the
cardinal rule: Treat each other with respect.
Otherwise, fire at will.
I’ll be sitting over there>>>>>.
Androids as a whole package seemed to be “cheep enough” to (ab)use them as
whores – so my guess’d be purchasing a body + empty memory bank should be
“affordable enough” for at least some individual persons. In your setting,
if someone is able and willing to pay for the backup,
they’re probably just allowed to do so by default, right?
—-
We never actually talked about uploading human brains to an android, did we?
I thought we were speculating mostly about making android copies of androids
and “whatever copy of humans” …
Putting a prize tag on a human -> android upload is difficult without
knowing how exactly the AI are created and how compatible they are to us.
—-
As for immortality as a goal: defeating death is a dream as old as
humanity itself. Hence the need to develop ideas of an afterlife and
trying to preserve the bodies of loved ones …
But suddenly being able to achieve this goal, is something else internally.
In most SF stories I came across it usually turns out as a bad idea,
eventually. Like, if have some people who are immortal while others are ”
allowed” to die, you automatically run into a scenario where you have a
caste of detached immortal self-proclaimed demi-gods and a disposable mass
of ordinary people. (Frank Herbert has a novel “The Eyes of Heisenberg”
about this topic, I would recommend for reading 😉 )
Another aspect of being immortal while others aren’t, as summarized by The
Doctor: “Immortality isn’t living forever. That’s not what it feels like.
Immortality is everybody else dying.”
—
As for long term effects … depends on the time scale we’re talking about.
In a space-limited scenario this probably will lead to stagnation eventually.
cheap.. NO,, they were ‘selling’ em to make money.!
and,, irl the closest robot (to android looking), minus
brain and (long term) powerplant,,
is about half a million
Half a million would be too much for you and me maybe.
But for there’s even cars that cost more than that, cars
that do find their buyers.
And don’t forget that even almost-normal people do spent
hundreds of thousands for buying houses …
(Above all: someone WAS whoring out AI a while back. They could
just as well have used them as “backups”)
How much do you think a 89 year old billionaire would be willing to
pay for the promise to get a new, healthy body and thus at least a few
more decades?
Here’s the thing about the cost, if someone made the switch, they stood to
“live” hundreds of years, and something that major would have to be on a
very long-term loan. Repairs and upgrades would of course be billed
separately…
If you’re playing that long a game, you should probably start early and set aside
small amounts of money conservatively with a moderate but sure interest rate.
True, it would be no different than paying into a retirement fund.
Or use an existing one to pay for the transfer.
Another question is would someone deserving of one but was
senile or suffering from age-related dementia be able to transfer?
Would it cure the problems?
immortally: then you have the “Legality” issue.
the ‘rich’ taking it with em.. forever
or the tyrant staying in power..
.. the endless disposable army ..
That’s basically one of my points up there.
(The “Eyes Of Heisenberg” setting is about a group of immortals using
ordinary as disposable resources)
Or “Eragon” (aka “Inheritance Cycle”). The Big Bad King was trying to gain
immortality. Thus his tyranny had to be stopped at almost any cost.
There are huge downsides to anything that far reaching,
which is why I feel it shouldn’t just be up to the person
wanting it, they should deserve it and they should be able
to benefit others with this gift. Would I be eligible? No,
there is a hundred people in every town just like me.
My wife just read this and smacked me for it….
I’m just being honest! LOL
The cost of such an upload depends on the process is common and “finished”.
The starting price is never stable and many facts add to it, not just the actual
cost of the procedure. Like Viagra, that last time I seen it’s cost was $63 per pill,
while when it first came out it was $11(USD). Only because it worked and many
that didn’t need it wanted it. Same goes for any diet plan, the more popular it
is, the more it costs. I’m diabetic, and anything designed for people like me is
costly only because it’s considered “healthy” that many started to eat it as a
trend only.
On the other side of the trend is things like TV’s or video game systems, they go
down in price, more so when the next thing comes and and becomes “trendy”.
When flat screen TVs hit the market they were very costly to have and became
a status symbol. At first, a 32″ TV was $1000 to $1200 but now I use one as a
monitor that cost me $125.
Human-android transfers should NEVER be about who can afford it, rather who
The Empire stood to lose if the person died. And it should be up to said person
wanted that option, not forced on them. Until said person passed away and their
mind is transferred, I’ll guess the android bodies would not be a true replacement,
rather than an option to pass on that person’s knowledge to students since they
would basically be disabled. Until a android body could reach at least human motion.
As far as who would want it, it depends on the person, sure I wouldn’t mind living
200 to 500 years healthy and clear minded, but unless I could find things to do with
that time I enjoyed it would become torture, and that would make the effort, cost, and
time worthless. Deep space explorers, doctors, and MAYBE some leaders would do it,
but for your average Joe with no interest in such things, it would be cruel. A psych eval
would be a must for that reason, for many it could drive them mad or bring out the
worst in people.
As far as who decides? I suggest a panel of impartial people from many areas of medical,
social, legal, and such to determine if this person is deserving, able, and willing to undertake
the task of it. It can’t be a quick and sudden decision, there are so many factors that have to
be covered, plus the person wanting to do it has to be prepared for it.
Also the question of the effect of the transfer, could a copy be made and
updated until the time came?
Would it be fatal to the person being transferred?
How much time would the transferie need to learn how to do even basic tasks?
(After I broke my back it took 6 months to learn how to walk again, etc…)
The list goes on….
That is a very interesting set of questions and I’ll think on it more, the movies
and TV shows gloss over SO much on this topic…
..Anne McCaffery, The Ship Who sang. series.
Robert A. Heinlein, had at least 3 books that
covered that..
I’ll have to look that up, I read many of his books,
That name rings a bell but I can’t remember where…
## Pricing
Of course the exact prices will always be varying, like they are for cars, houses and
TV sets … question is: is a copy more like a TV set or a van Gogh painting, price-wise?
—-
## Who should be deciding?
It’s a bit funny. You guys are usually all about free market and let people decide
for themselves. Also stuff like “if you want something – what are you willing to
sacrifice for it? Don’t demand it from the government or community”
But the decision if somebody should be “allowed” to continue their lives for a few
centuries (or eons?), which is a rather personal matter, ain’t it?
That decision should be handed over to a panel?
What’s the difference?
If you can’t afford clean water: dig a well.
You want a healthy environment for your kids: then move there yourself.
And if you want to eat work, goddammit.
+ + but + +
You want to live for ever? Sorry dude. There’s a committee for
that. Please hand in your application, thank you.
And don’t call us. We call you.
—-
## The “would it be fatal” aspect:
Unless it requires dissecting or “quantum shredding” the original subject,
I think the transfer would probably be non-disruptive and repeatable.
I always cringe when somebody copies an information based being in a SF
setting and the original is destroyed in the process like that was the natural
way of things (for example removing an AI infecting your ships main computer by
COPYING it over to a less vital system – which was the go-to solution in some SF
shows a while back).
Making an exact copy of a mind into a new body should – at least in my humble
opinion – result in having two (initially very similar) versions of the same individual.
Of course they would start to differentiate after the process as soon both start
making their own experiences and memories.
(A bit like some pairs of identical twins, maybe?)
## Who would even want to?
Well.
There seems to be surprising number of people who cling onto their lives,
even after losing control over their bodies and minds as well as almost every
single loved one years, even decades ago…
Offering them a new body and a way to start over?
“Sure, Sir, where do I have to sign? Huh? It says you’d have to murder
5 million kids somewhere in China and extract their brain cells for raw
materials? Oh, well, can’t be helped, I guess. When will we start?”
The panel is to decide if the gift of extended life is for you, I for one wouldn’t
want a cruel, inhuman person that gift, or someone that will crack under the
mental strain of hundreds of years. There’s another comic I follow,
“The Quantum Vibe” Where science had cracked not only this very issue, but
the human genome to the point where humans live hundreds of years and
can “save” their minds into an android’s from a backup in case they die. Also
can by this science, can remake themselves into almost any form they like. A
snake, a cartoon character, you name it. Weird but who knows?
I suggested a panel make up of people who are trustworthy and have no connection
to the candidate to judge if this person can handle the strain of the transfer and
the number of years that will pass. An android brain can only store so much data
and even the human brain has limits, that is part of the reason as you age you
become forgetful, you’re reaching the limits that your mind can “save”.
This is a whole new world of possibilities that has no one to grasp the scope of or
the slightest idea of the long term effect on the human mind, caution must be
taken. Later on when people know the whys and whatfores of the effect of
what the transfers cause could it be more relaxed.
Plus I feel it should be as guarded a secret as the grav tech, you wouldn’t want
someone like the CSA president to have an android body would you?
“It’s a bit funny. You guys are usually all about free market and let people decide
for themselves. Also stuff like “if you want something – what are you willing to
sacrifice for it? Don’t demand it from the government or community””
The fact that there is no forced government charity doesn’t mean that there is NO
charity.
There are plenty of private charities dedicated to helping the less fortunate, or
helping people get over rough periods in their lives.
They just do it with assets that other people contribute freely, not with assets
seized by force through taxes.
But you are correct in one thing, don’t demand that others help you. Ask for it.
If you need a well, there will always be others who will help you dig it… But
you’d better be out there with tools in your hand… Or a tray full of lemonade,
or something.
Who do you think pays for the program mentioned in panel one here:
http://thegentlewolf.net/comic/tgw-551/
Nobody need go hungry in the Empire, no child need be neglected or
uneducated. The people around them are better than that.
But no one will support you if you decide to lay around and do nothing of
value, either. TANSTAAFL.
As far as “Who decides”, well, as always, the people who pay for it do. Just
like with everything else. If you can afford eternal life and can persuade
someone else to sell it to you, well, go for it.
If you want someone else to pay for it, just ask. Nicely. Doesn’t mean you’ll
get it, though. Offer something of value in exchange.
Just like the AIs are expected to do. No, they didn’t ask to be “born”. But
just like anyone else, they are expected to eventually earn the benefits of
living in a civilization. No one is obligated to provide for them from electronic
cradle to end of life.
I guess I have a higher opinion of the average person than you do. But then,
I’ve lived all over the world, and have met good people wherever I’ve found
myself. Maybe because those are the people I’ve always looked for.
I don’t have such a bad view on people in general. Pick any number
of John, Jane, Mustapha or Sarah Doe at random from all over the
world, and you’re almost guaranteed to get a group of brilliant and
nice people (plus the occasional bad apple, of course).
I just don’t believe that you can get rich by being a “good person”,
or more precisely that money corrupts even more profoundly than
power does.
Also I consider all that “free market is the best and only solution
to each and every problem” or the “invisible hand of the market
will make things right for everyone” or “everybody gets what they
deserve” is mostly just self-serving bullshit, fed to us by those who
don’t have to care about anything but how do get even a bigger
share of the cake.
As for TANSTAAFL – agreed. But then we should finally start to
apply that to natural resources, too. The cost of one ounce of
gold, gas or iron is not just the work and energy needed to pull
it from the ground.
“Also I consider all that “free market is the best and only solution
to each and every problem” or the “invisible hand of the market
will make things right for everyone” or “everybody gets what they
deserve” is mostly just self-serving bullshit, fed to us by those who
don’t have to care about anything but how do get even a bigger
share of the cake.”
That’s not what I espouse here. People can choose duty and responsibility
towards others, and they will. But it’s not something that can be
enforced by government, nor should it be. When the government takes on
the power to pick winners and losers, everyone loses eventually. And
in the meantime, anger, hatred and bigotry flourish as some see others
gaining an unnatural advantage via authoritarian edict.
Name a system that has lifted more people out of poverty than the free
market. It’s not perfect, no. But with what would you replace it that
would do better?
How about a more regulated free market?
The “lifting out of poverty” thing isn’t that much of an
achievement of unleashed capitalism as it is a result of
forcing the bosses to adhere to at least some standards.
Pure, unmitigated “free market” capitalism is coal miners
working themself to death without ever making enough
money to feed their families.
It’s children sifting through toxic waste in landfills.
It’s people dying in the streets of – say –
London because the air is just unbreathable.
A truly free market laissez faire liberalism without work
standards or environmental regulations is a monster.
It might be a bit too far out on a tangent, but: there’s always
other costs beyond just paying for your workforce,
raw materials and facilities.
Like, somebody has to deal with all the damage and the waste and
the risks of accidents. And without an external force, a free
market entrepreneur will always chose to let the community pay
these prizes.
## Back to “immortality as a service”
Frankly, if there’s any form of immortality for some
but not for the masses, it will be a huge incentive
(maybe even the ultimate incentive?) for corruption.
If you let the money decide, most of the chosen few
will be pampered princesses and Ebeneezer Scrooges.
If you let a panel/committee decide, those who can
afford it will try and find somebody to bribe and
buy their way in.
If there’s a lottery, they will try to rig it
(and you might end up giving immortality to people
who don’t really wanted it in the first place)
The trouble is that there will be many that would want immortality,
no matter the price tag. But the question is how many have the
psychology for it. In my opinion, someone that has a really long-
term goal has the best chances in that regard.
Take Perry Rhodan as an example, despite being a little over
3,000 years old, he still has his two main goals. He wants to
explore the universe and he wants to help humanity to find
it’s place among the stars. Though he has changed his point
of view from humanity to Terrans, which now includes non-
human, non-humanoid and even non-biological people.
Still, in this regard, I still find the introduction from the Perry
Rhodan point-and-click adventure very apt:
Do you know what immortality means?
Not being able to die for 3,000 years?
Having to see the seeds one sows grow, bloom and wilt
over and over again?
Two billion solar masses in the milky way. Enough space
for everybody one would think.
Everyone wants what others have.
Planets, resources, weapons, life and immortality.
A whole universe full of enemies.
Everyone might want it to start with, but few could handle it long-term.
an immortal could see empires rise and fall, civilizations live, prosper
and die off, picture what a stop-motion movie would look like that covered
a thousand, or a million years. People, weather, flora and fauna would be
just a blur, no substance. Only you would be stable during the whole thing,
nothing you’d see or hear would leave any impression… Sad, but that’s
the life of an immortal.
Typo: “why others aren’t” should read “while others aren’t”
fixed
thanx. Again 😉
I made a long comment and it didn’t post, too long?
yep.. but all good..
Thanks, I could write a paper on that concept LOL.
I can see some on Earth and Catia living there as androids, but whole-sale conversions?
How crowded would the planet become? I think it would be based on the value of their
contributions as much as anything. Like myself and my father, I’m a natural as a mechanic
and a “Jack-of-all-trades”, however I lack the outside of the box thinking like my father
has, he could plan and build something on the spot without the need of putting on paper.
He loved to create working things out a pile a scrap, while most people would be like WTH?!?
Also it should not be available to any of the young (unless they were terminally ill) simply
because of the sudden drop of population growth it would cause for the fad of it, like when
the rich kids on Lamia were doing with the Catain limbs, both would be irreversible.
That’s why immortality usually is linked with sterility (or extremely low reproduction rates)
in a SF or fantasy setting.
Think of Tolkien-style elves.
Exactly, of course the option of egg, sperm collection would come to that, but
people that want something for the “fad” of it rarely think of anyone beyond
of themselves, clearly not a good candidate for the transfer. If someone thinks
“I’m bored” and do something for the “fun” of it, should never be given a body,
they couldn’t handle the torture of extended life. The movie
“a clockwork orange” is a very good example of that mindset.
I believe the economy of The Empire is a solid issue that should be looked at in detail.
Not because of the costs and the longevity of the androids, but because of how long
would they be able to function and do the jobs they have? Producing 10,000 ‘droids
would no doubt cost in the billions of dollars and millions for repairs or upgrades.
Add in human minds and emotions could cause an unknown issues that would create
expenses with no real advantages. The entire program could crash the economy or
give it a boost, it’s a real issue of the long-term costs to consider and far greater minds
than mine to figure out… I’ve thought about it a lot and I’m still seeing as many cons as
pros.
What’s preventing someone from putting a physical object in front of the wormhole like an forcefield or an iris similar to SG1?
It appears to be like Deep Space 9’s wormhole, free and no tech to support it,
any kind of physical object set close enough to have an effect could be pulled
in and lost or torn apart.
Exactly. Wormholes can be detected by mass detectors, so
they’d have a gravity field as well. Also, they can be entered
and exited at an angle, so any block would have to be huge.
A mine field could work but it’d be a risk for friendlies as well as attackers.
A bunch of (or rather thousands and thousands) of weapon
bearing defense platforms orbiting the wormhole might work.
If there’s enough of them on various different orbits you will
always have a few missiles ready for any hostile passing thru.
Of course they need a way of telling friend from foe.
But there’s systems for that even today.
And you need to take care of them or they will run out of ammo
or eventually collide with each other or drop into the thing
(or stop working in multiple other ways)
Hi. Still popping in to check on the story!
(sprinkles “snap-n-pops” all over the place) heheheh……
*tip toeing around very carefully…avoiding…..SNAP~! HEY SCAR!***
Heheheheheh…. :p
https://youtu.be/NWLdkmtjxZg
Some heroic music for ya.
Dr. Who said it best, living forever just means everyone else dies around you.
That would be a loneliness I for one could not take. I don’t know who said it
first, but “no parent should outlive their children” pretty much says it all.
A special type of person could do it, someone that was fine with being alone.
Someone who’s fine with “the job” over anything else.
A transferred human would also need to option to retire, “an extended vacation”
so to speak, to decide what’s next and where.
Or you’d somehow try and take your loved ones with you on the ride?
But would that even work either?
Try to truly image spending not only a few decades but millennia
with always the same wife, while your children are either long dead
and gone or with you for eternity (and if they are, too – what
about their spouses and children? What about your friends?)
What if you find out – after a decades of loving each other deeply
and few thousand years of getting along somehow – that you’ve come
to a point where you just can’t stand the people around you anymore.
But by then you’re stuck with them anyway.
Everybody else is literally from a different era.
Immortality always comes with a form of stagnation,
doesn’t it? Either that, or you go on living on and
on in a world you understand less and less of.
Stanislav Lem has a nice novel named “Transfer” about an astronaut
who had traveled for about a century without aging (relativity of
course) and returned to a world that he no longer fit in,
no matter how hard he tried.
Eventually he left for another trip to space.