I shouldn’t have given her pink hair, I meant for these to be right-wing extremists.
The whole “Earth for Earthlings” sort of thing.
Congrats, Bill, you called it!
First, the taser to the armpit is going to be FUN!!!!
Secondly, bigotry (in this case racism?) is neither left or right, it’s just the outcome of a tiny mind. I know of what I speak, I grew up in south Mississippi in the 60s and 70s. I remember seeing the ‘whites’ and ‘coloreds’ signs.
Interesting side question, since the catians are genetically modified humans, can they be seen as a different race?
As to our ‘urban outdoorsman’, let’s reassess: Why was he living under a bridge? If it was his choice, and he was not harming anyone, he is not an embarassment, he is a free man.
If he lives as a vegetable, that is sad, but the people who put him in that condition shall pay for the crime. And he put himself in harm’s way to protect a fellow sentient being. That falls into possible hero status in my book.
If there is any garbage to be taken out, it’s the senator. Screw appearances, let the truth speak for itself.
A bullhorn to the face is more than assault, it’s battery in and of itself — it can cause permanent damage like tinnitis. Slapping it away is self-defense. Punching a little girl less than half your age or size is beyond the pale. If the taser to the armpit is ALL she gets, justice will have failed. The Catians are more truly a separate race than any of the so-called ‘races’ on Earth. The dragons and other sapient species, I believe, decided to see them as modified humans so they didn’t have to get involved in what the baseline humans were doing to them, much like they never interfered with any Earth humans treating people like animals, separate ‘race’ or not. So, yes, they CAN be, but since they can’t exchange genes with baseline humans naturally, they really shouldn’t be.
The biggest problem with letting the world know about Teresa’s healing is that she is a very limited resource. The demands of Jerico would exceed her supply, much less the Empire, much much less the world — and there would be literal DEMANDS. She could easily spark a war. Heck, I have a hard time seeing her keeping up with just healing all the people she will feel like she owes an obligation to try to heal, like this guy.
I got my answer turned around backward, didn’t I? The Catians SHOULD be considered a separate race, subspecies or species. All three really. But they don’t have to be — the other sapients we know of DECIDED not to. Klingons, Vulcans, elves and Deep Ones can mix genes with baseline humans, Catians can’t. Who’s a separate race?
they are human.. TGW-183.. a HUMAN an several assistants combined DNA to make the cats… an not a separate species, maybe a separate race,, was MADE sterile to baseline humans… which can be reversed… ((but why.))
race : a group of Humans,, based on shared physical or social traits.. IE: skin tone, or language .. (( so they haz cat ears…))
species : a group of organisms, of mating types that can produce fertile offspring.. so all the races.. the doctor made them sterile to baseline humans, because he did not want little doctors running round…
..subspecies is harder to define,, but in this context ,, every individual human IS a subspecies…
sooo asking here… by your statement .. all sterile females in the world right now are a separate race/species because they cannot produce offspring.!??? or to be clear,, not human??
I don’t know why you specify sterile females and exclude sterile males. In any case, that does not reflect my opinion. The Catians are an independent, stable reproducing genetic community. If it has been stated that the genetic quirks that keep baseline human gametes and Catian gametes from producing viable zygotes is naturally reversible, I missed that and apologize. The idea that baseline and Catian DNA could be mixed in a lab is certainly reasonable, whether it has been stated or not. There are in the real world strains of laboratory mice with human DNA. They are not human. Catian DNA is mostly human, but the same is true of all the other great apes, and the question of whether apes are or are nearly sapient is immaterial, they are not AS sapient as humans, Catians or dragons.
Sterile humans of either gender or both together cannot form a stable reproducing genetic community — and one does not have to produce children to be a part of the same species as their parents. Catians and baseline humans are more different genetically than lions and tigers, more than burros and horses.
The fact that the Empire will (already does) contain both baseline humans and Catians may well serve as a demonstration that different species can work together in a single polity, respecting each other as equals, and could serve as an example to the other sapient species that the old feuds and the walls that keep them dormant are not necessarily necessary.
To my way of thinking, Catians are not a separate “race” but an entirely different SPECIES, altogether. Wolves and dogs can not only interbreed but the offspring are fertile. There are many species of small felines which can interbreed, produce fertile offspring and the cross even breeds true (such as my wife’s Bengal Cat). That does not negate the fact that they are separate species. Likewise there are many species of wild small fowl which can and have been interbred with domestic chickens and yet are undeniably different species. Irrespective of their origin, I believe that Catians represent a separate intelligent, sentient species and bigotry and discrimination against them would be “species-ism” not racism. Regardless of what you call such bigotry, it is still every bit as morally reprehensible as chattel slavery. Unfortunately, such bigotry will always be with us. There will always be “us” and “them” no matter how the boundary between the two groups is defined. Many of us will remember seeing films of crowds of Germans chanting, “Deutschland ist fur die Deutsch! Auslander rous! (Germany is for Germans! Foreigners out!)
As for the alleged “fat shaming”, nobody called the purple-haired harridan “fat” (although she unquestionably is). The observation was that she did not appear to have missed any meals. There was no implication
Addendum: Despite the fact that Catians are – MUST be – a different species, they are undeniably sentient; and undeniably “people”. Jochi, I don’t know about “Deep Ones”. I I DO know that Lovecraft wrote long before we really knew much of anything about the function/action of genes and chromosomes. I don’t know about elves. If you are referring to Tolkein’s elves, they belong to a completely different mythos and have no purpose in this discussion.You are more closely related to a sponge than to ANYTHING which evolved under a star other than Sol. Any combination/fusion of human and Klingon or human and Vulcan reproductive material would have to come from a gene engineering lab with VERY advanced technology.
That comment was made assuming the context of each mythos. Sarek made one off-hand comment about having to use technology to deal with details of Spock’s conception. There was no such mention when either of the human/Klingon hybrids appeared, nor the Klingon/Romulan or human/Romulan. The implication is that many if not all bipedal sapients in the Star Trek mythos can interbreed with little or no difficulty, in spite of the fact that there are major biological differences (copper blood and two hearts, just to start). The line about elves was based on Tolkein, or D&D, take your pick. Petercat can set up HIS mythos however he wants, and what he has to say about it is Word of God. (I first ran into the ridiculous notion that fans/critics were better judges of an author’s symbology and implications than the author himself in college. I still think it’s one of the dumbest things ever.) I was giving examples from other mythoi basically as examples of less separation but still called different races, certainly not as superior ideas, and if that was confusing I will refrain from doing so.
I thought I was very clear in stating that Catians ARE people. So are dragons. So, presumably, are the other races/species we know exist and may meet some day. They’d have to be to be space capable. No other terran animals have satisfactorily demonstrated that yet, although many are sapient enough that they shouldn’t be treated as dumb brutes. But PEOPLE have inherent rights by dint of that personhood, and the three kinds we’ve met so far all qualify. One can, I suppose, abrogate one’s own natural rights, and the rapists have, and the spokesthing is getting very close.
ok .. ok first an foremost… Catians are human…. humans genetically altered.. (transhuman.)
they were specifically altered NOT to breed with baseline humans ,, what was turned off , can be turned on.!! ((im no gene splicer but that should be a simple switch/flip of specific chromosome.))
so again the doctor made them specifically sterile to baseline humans,, not a natural occurrence …
an race, are all one race , human ,, an yes we are a bunch of species groups (white, black, catian, an asian…to name a few..). . subspecies is each individual …
also go back an read “TGW-183″…
This discussion has gone on longer than it deserves, and this is my LAST contribution to it. ItRW we are all one species, Homo Sapiens, and one subspecies, Homo Sapiens Sapiens, as opposed to Homo Sapiens Neandertalis, Heidelbergensis, Denisova and the rest, all of which have died out or been absorbed into our bloodlines. There are tribes among humans, but trying to link those tribes into ‘races’ is genetically impossible — Watusi are more like Swedes genetically than they are like Hottentots, and there is more genetic variation WITHIN a population group than between two different ones. Any time two groups of humans have lived within reach of each other, they have made babies together. There ARE no pure races, and I’m not the first to paraphrase Heinlein.
If whatever genetic barrier was set up between Catians and baseline humans were reversible, barring a contrary statement from Petercat, it would only be in the laboratory and would only apply to new individuals, not existing populations of either group. Sure, Petercat could create, say, a communicable virus that would spread through one group or both that would wipe out the barrier, but he hasn’t and I don’t expect it. He created the barrier for narrative purposes, and we don’t know if we have seen all that narration yet.
As for TGW-183, I’m sure you are familiar with the device called The Unreliable Narrator. The fact that this is the dragons’ position is well-established. It is their opinion. It is as true as logic allows, word definitions apply, and Petercat states himself, not through a character. It is a political position as much as it is a statement of genetics.
Oooof. Way to late for this conversation and don’t know if you will ever see this, but:
My writing will not only account for the ‘deep ones,’ but the Unnameable and a host of other things- Including what existed before genetics / genes 😛
Another random thought:
“Fatshaming”
If I am fat, or short, or bald, or white, or black, and feel no shame associated with my being any of these, how can someone else’s statement cause me shame?
Only if I harbor shame, and someone points it out, can it be called “shaming”.
One of my favorite Robert Heinlein quotes, among many, is “An insult is like a drink, it can’t affect you if you don’t accept it.”
I shouldn’t have given her pink hair, I meant for these to be right-wing extremists.
The whole “Earth for Earthlings” sort of thing.
I shouldn’t have given her pink hair, I meant for these to be right-wing extremists.
The whole “Earth for Earthlings” sort of thing.
Congrats, Bill, you called it!
The fatshaming response kind of pegs the spokething more as a lefty than a extreme right type and thus the pink hair seems correct.
Well, They act like leftists living under K’s
Teresa,, Teresa.. i thought you said no indiscriminate healing… (but for a good cause,,) .. just be careful not to heal,, to much..
hehe taser…
Kajm may have to lecture her about that. Mythologies often run out of control, and she’s about to get one started.
First, the taser to the armpit is going to be FUN!!!!
Secondly, bigotry (in this case racism?) is neither left or right, it’s just the outcome of a tiny mind. I know of what I speak, I grew up in south Mississippi in the 60s and 70s. I remember seeing the ‘whites’ and ‘coloreds’ signs.
Interesting side question, since the catians are genetically modified humans, can they be seen as a different race?
As to our ‘urban outdoorsman’, let’s reassess: Why was he living under a bridge? If it was his choice, and he was not harming anyone, he is not an embarassment, he is a free man.
If he lives as a vegetable, that is sad, but the people who put him in that condition shall pay for the crime. And he put himself in harm’s way to protect a fellow sentient being. That falls into possible hero status in my book.
If there is any garbage to be taken out, it’s the senator. Screw appearances, let the truth speak for itself.
A bullhorn to the face is more than assault, it’s battery in and of itself — it can cause permanent damage like tinnitis. Slapping it away is self-defense. Punching a little girl less than half your age or size is beyond the pale. If the taser to the armpit is ALL she gets, justice will have failed. The Catians are more truly a separate race than any of the so-called ‘races’ on Earth. The dragons and other sapient species, I believe, decided to see them as modified humans so they didn’t have to get involved in what the baseline humans were doing to them, much like they never interfered with any Earth humans treating people like animals, separate ‘race’ or not. So, yes, they CAN be, but since they can’t exchange genes with baseline humans naturally, they really shouldn’t be.
The biggest problem with letting the world know about Teresa’s healing is that she is a very limited resource. The demands of Jerico would exceed her supply, much less the Empire, much much less the world — and there would be literal DEMANDS. She could easily spark a war. Heck, I have a hard time seeing her keeping up with just healing all the people she will feel like she owes an obligation to try to heal, like this guy.
I got my answer turned around backward, didn’t I? The Catians SHOULD be considered a separate race, subspecies or species. All three really. But they don’t have to be — the other sapients we know of DECIDED not to. Klingons, Vulcans, elves and Deep Ones can mix genes with baseline humans, Catians can’t. Who’s a separate race?
they are human.. TGW-183.. a HUMAN an several assistants combined DNA to make the cats… an not a separate species, maybe a separate race,, was MADE sterile to baseline humans… which can be reversed… ((but why.))
race : a group of Humans,, based on shared physical or social traits.. IE: skin tone, or language .. (( so they haz cat ears…))
species : a group of organisms, of mating types that can produce fertile offspring.. so all the races.. the doctor made them sterile to baseline humans, because he did not want little doctors running round…
..subspecies is harder to define,, but in this context ,, every individual human IS a subspecies…
sooo asking here… by your statement .. all sterile females in the world right now are a separate race/species because they cannot produce offspring.!??? or to be clear,, not human??
I don’t know why you specify sterile females and exclude sterile males. In any case, that does not reflect my opinion. The Catians are an independent, stable reproducing genetic community. If it has been stated that the genetic quirks that keep baseline human gametes and Catian gametes from producing viable zygotes is naturally reversible, I missed that and apologize. The idea that baseline and Catian DNA could be mixed in a lab is certainly reasonable, whether it has been stated or not. There are in the real world strains of laboratory mice with human DNA. They are not human. Catian DNA is mostly human, but the same is true of all the other great apes, and the question of whether apes are or are nearly sapient is immaterial, they are not AS sapient as humans, Catians or dragons.
Sterile humans of either gender or both together cannot form a stable reproducing genetic community — and one does not have to produce children to be a part of the same species as their parents. Catians and baseline humans are more different genetically than lions and tigers, more than burros and horses.
The fact that the Empire will (already does) contain both baseline humans and Catians may well serve as a demonstration that different species can work together in a single polity, respecting each other as equals, and could serve as an example to the other sapient species that the old feuds and the walls that keep them dormant are not necessarily necessary.
To my way of thinking, Catians are not a separate “race” but an entirely different SPECIES, altogether. Wolves and dogs can not only interbreed but the offspring are fertile. There are many species of small felines which can interbreed, produce fertile offspring and the cross even breeds true (such as my wife’s Bengal Cat). That does not negate the fact that they are separate species. Likewise there are many species of wild small fowl which can and have been interbred with domestic chickens and yet are undeniably different species. Irrespective of their origin, I believe that Catians represent a separate intelligent, sentient species and bigotry and discrimination against them would be “species-ism” not racism. Regardless of what you call such bigotry, it is still every bit as morally reprehensible as chattel slavery. Unfortunately, such bigotry will always be with us. There will always be “us” and “them” no matter how the boundary between the two groups is defined. Many of us will remember seeing films of crowds of Germans chanting, “Deutschland ist fur die Deutsch! Auslander rous! (Germany is for Germans! Foreigners out!)
As for the alleged “fat shaming”, nobody called the purple-haired harridan “fat” (although she unquestionably is). The observation was that she did not appear to have missed any meals. There was no implication
Addendum: Despite the fact that Catians are – MUST be – a different species, they are undeniably sentient; and undeniably “people”. Jochi, I don’t know about “Deep Ones”. I I DO know that Lovecraft wrote long before we really knew much of anything about the function/action of genes and chromosomes. I don’t know about elves. If you are referring to Tolkein’s elves, they belong to a completely different mythos and have no purpose in this discussion.You are more closely related to a sponge than to ANYTHING which evolved under a star other than Sol. Any combination/fusion of human and Klingon or human and Vulcan reproductive material would have to come from a gene engineering lab with VERY advanced technology.
That comment was made assuming the context of each mythos. Sarek made one off-hand comment about having to use technology to deal with details of Spock’s conception. There was no such mention when either of the human/Klingon hybrids appeared, nor the Klingon/Romulan or human/Romulan. The implication is that many if not all bipedal sapients in the Star Trek mythos can interbreed with little or no difficulty, in spite of the fact that there are major biological differences (copper blood and two hearts, just to start). The line about elves was based on Tolkein, or D&D, take your pick. Petercat can set up HIS mythos however he wants, and what he has to say about it is Word of God. (I first ran into the ridiculous notion that fans/critics were better judges of an author’s symbology and implications than the author himself in college. I still think it’s one of the dumbest things ever.) I was giving examples from other mythoi basically as examples of less separation but still called different races, certainly not as superior ideas, and if that was confusing I will refrain from doing so.
I thought I was very clear in stating that Catians ARE people. So are dragons. So, presumably, are the other races/species we know exist and may meet some day. They’d have to be to be space capable. No other terran animals have satisfactorily demonstrated that yet, although many are sapient enough that they shouldn’t be treated as dumb brutes. But PEOPLE have inherent rights by dint of that personhood, and the three kinds we’ve met so far all qualify. One can, I suppose, abrogate one’s own natural rights, and the rapists have, and the spokesthing is getting very close.
ok .. ok first an foremost… Catians are human…. humans genetically altered.. (transhuman.)
they were specifically altered NOT to breed with baseline humans ,, what was turned off , can be turned on.!! ((im no gene splicer but that should be a simple switch/flip of specific chromosome.))
so again the doctor made them specifically sterile to baseline humans,, not a natural occurrence …
an race, are all one race , human ,, an yes we are a bunch of species groups (white, black, catian, an asian…to name a few..). . subspecies is each individual …
also go back an read “TGW-183″…
This discussion has gone on longer than it deserves, and this is my LAST contribution to it. ItRW we are all one species, Homo Sapiens, and one subspecies, Homo Sapiens Sapiens, as opposed to Homo Sapiens Neandertalis, Heidelbergensis, Denisova and the rest, all of which have died out or been absorbed into our bloodlines. There are tribes among humans, but trying to link those tribes into ‘races’ is genetically impossible — Watusi are more like Swedes genetically than they are like Hottentots, and there is more genetic variation WITHIN a population group than between two different ones. Any time two groups of humans have lived within reach of each other, they have made babies together. There ARE no pure races, and I’m not the first to paraphrase Heinlein.
If whatever genetic barrier was set up between Catians and baseline humans were reversible, barring a contrary statement from Petercat, it would only be in the laboratory and would only apply to new individuals, not existing populations of either group. Sure, Petercat could create, say, a communicable virus that would spread through one group or both that would wipe out the barrier, but he hasn’t and I don’t expect it. He created the barrier for narrative purposes, and we don’t know if we have seen all that narration yet.
As for TGW-183, I’m sure you are familiar with the device called The Unreliable Narrator. The fact that this is the dragons’ position is well-established. It is their opinion. It is as true as logic allows, word definitions apply, and Petercat states himself, not through a character. It is a political position as much as it is a statement of genetics.
Oooof. Way to late for this conversation and don’t know if you will ever see this, but:
My writing will not only account for the ‘deep ones,’ but the Unnameable and a host of other things- Including what existed before genetics / genes 😛
Someone had to do it.
Another random thought:
“Fatshaming”
If I am fat, or short, or bald, or white, or black, and feel no shame associated with my being any of these, how can someone else’s statement cause me shame?
Only if I harbor shame, and someone points it out, can it be called “shaming”.
One of my favorite Robert Heinlein quotes, among many, is “An insult is like a drink, it can’t affect you if you don’t accept it.”